Mike Wordsmith

For those who believe Noah, Abraham, and other pre-Mosaic figures weren’t personally observing clean/unclean dietary restrictions (“Noahide laws” only), I have a question. Why do we never see God accepting an unclean animal as a sacrifice unto Himself, even centuries before Israel existed? The usual explanations for the dietary laws are that they were given specifically to Israel, either to distinguish Israel from the surrounding nations, or for health reasons in an ancient world without modern food safety practices. But consider this: Noah explicitly distinguished clean from unclean animals, and offered only clean animals and clean birds to God. Abraham likewise offered animals later identified as acceptable sacrifices under the Mosaic Torah. We see the same pattern with other pre-Mosaic figures. God certainly wasn’t going to get sick from an unclean offering. And the clean/unclean distinction couldn’t have originated merely to separate Israel from the nations, because the distinction already existed before Israel. When God later gives Israel the dietary laws, He explicitly connects the distinction to His own holiness: “Be holy, for I am holy.” So the question remains: Why do we never see God accepting an unclean animal as an offering unto Himself, even before Israel existed?

If gentiles are not to heed the Torah, as it was not given nationally to them, why does Isaiah 24, speaking of the still future global apocalypse and destruction of earth, condemn them on that very basis: “The earth is also defiled under its inhabitants, Because they have transgressed the Torah, Changed the ordinance, Broken the everlasting covenant.” (Isaiah 24:5) If you think Isaiah’s use of the word “Torah” does not include gentile adherence to mosaic Torah concepts such as dietary laws, Sabbath, or biblical holidays, (“That was for Jews/Israel only”) consider Isaiah’s depiction how these exact Laws will apply: Who will be saved from this still future event? “And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD, to minister to him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be his servants, everyone who keeps the *Shabbat* and does not profane it, and holds fast my covenant—these I will bring to my holy mountain” (Isaiah 56:6-7 Who comes to an end? Still future: “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one in the midst, eating *pig’s flesh* and the abomination and mice, shall come to an end together, declares the LORD.” (Isaiah 66:17) How are the Moedim held, in this perfected world after destruction? “From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD.” (Isaiah 66:23)

If the new covenant existed in the OT, prior to the ministry of Jesus, His death and resurrection (It did), even if only in small part on an individual basis, then it cannot be interpreted to mean the Torah is no longer to be heeded.

Texas will be Red again 💔😢

A common objection to the textual citing of “Torah” in Genesis 26:5 is that this wasn’t a fully developed term yet. That historically/grammatically, it didn’t mean the same thing at the time of Abraham as it did at the time of Moses. There’s a tendency to think Genesis 1-5 was written at the time of Adam, the verses about Abraham were written at the time of Abraham, and so forth. Because that’s how it reads. In reality, Moses wrote Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, as mediated to him by God throughout his (Moses) lifetime. The question becomes not what did “Torah” mean at the time of Abraham, but what did it mean at the time of Moses? Which makes it hard to turn around and say Torah meant something different to Abraham than it meant to Moses, because this was the word used as written by Moses, at the time of Moses. The Torah is the eternal measure of righteousness, in both directions. God’s righteousness is unchanging. God calls it “My” Torah. It was given to Moses, but it stood before Moses, and it still stands today.

God’s commandments are a testimony of His perfect righteousness. “But you are near, O LORD, and all your commandments are true. Long have I known from your testimonies that you have founded them forever.” (Psalm 119:151-152)

1st century Judaism believed Abraham to have kept the Law of Moses (Torah), pre-Sinai. This is documented and still true of Judaism to this day. “because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my Torah.” (Genesis 26:5) This historical context is important when reading Paul’s model of Abraham as an example for gentile believers in Yeshua Messiah.

I believe the Torah is still the measure of sin. BECAUSE THE BIBLE SAYS SO.

Does Nehemiah’s prayer match your view of God’s Torah? Right, true, good, holy… “You came down on Mount Sinai and spoke with them from heaven and gave them right rules and true Torah, good statutes and commandments, and you made known to them your holy Sabbath and commanded them commandments and statutes and the Torah by Moses your servant.” (Nehemiah 9:13-14) For 99.99% of Christianity, it does not.

(Rooster crows)

What is your approach to handling historic records that take narratives attributed to God, and attribute it to an earlier pagan deity? Some examples referenced below. There’s been historical claims that circumcision pre-dated Abraham in Egypt, that Melchizedek was a priestly name for a pagan deity (Zedek), Noah’s the Ark resembled some sort of Egyptian pagan shrine, etc. There’s a million of them. For me, though I welcome historical records when it supports the biblical narrative, I don’t immediately assume any historical record is true when claimed that it pre-dates the Christian record. This isn’t necessarily a double standard. It’s because I hold the biblical record as the highest standard. But even if something did theoretically pre-date the biblical record, I also know that satan is the great deceiver who likes to imitate God (~Angel of Light). I don’t know how much he knew when, so even if there is something from pagan history that is claimed to have pre-existed a biblical narrative, i just chalk it up to the devil doing what he loves to do and attempting to immigrate God and twist a the biblical narrative. These could be disassembled more thoroughly one by one, but, just sharing my approach, lack of interest/care. And wondering how you handle claims like this.

Was this a dumb *question*?

Solomon thought it was to fear God and heed the Torah

Eating pork was more than simply causing ritual uncleanness — such as birthing a child, or burying a relative. It was, and therefore always will be, a sin. “For the assembly (Ekklesia in Septuagint), there shall be one statute for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you, a statute forever throughout your generations. You and the sojourner shall be alike before the LORD. One Torah and one rule shall be for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you.” (Numbers 15:15-16)

Following up on this, Emperor Hadrian (Of the Bar Korba revolt) is not commonly attributed to being a minor fulfillment of Antichrist (Type), but, as a messianic, I believe he is. He punished by penalty of death any observances of Sabbath, biblical holidays, dietary law observance, basically any key elements of visible Torah observance. He greatly accelerated the diaspora which ended the biblical calendar (Later replaced with the Rabinic calendar). He crosses a lot of boxes for the Dan 7:25 prophecy. If so, this may be what we would likewise expect in the future from the major fulfillment of the Antichrist figure. “He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the moedim and the Torah; (Daniel 7:25) In the end, the gentile church we read about in the NT either dropped these practices as taught and preached by the apostles, fled the region, or they were killed. The Roman Christianity that remained hereafter was therefore purged of that sect.

I’ve always found it strange that Westminster Confessional Presbyterians (PCA) can be so extraordinarily precise about doctrine, yet their confessional standards are remarkably thin when it comes to eschatology. They don’t even establish whether the millennium is pre-, post-, or amillennial. What about Daniel’s prophetic chronology? Revelation 20? The sequence of events preceding Christ’s return? The nature and timing of the coming kingdom? The fulfillment of prophetic promises? Affirming that Christ returns, the dead are raised, and judgment follows is certainly doctrine. But that’s barely scratching the surface of biblical eschatology. Prophecy is doctrine, too. Why is so much of it left doctrinally untouched and undefined in a tradition otherwise so committed to precision?

“I will not violate my covenant or alter the word that went forth from my lips.” (Psalm 89:34) If you define the “New Covenant” as Jeremiah does - that God will write his Torah on our hearts, then Psalm 89:34 fits. If you define the new covenant as something else, that the Torah is no longer the measure of sin, then Psalm 89:34 doesn’t fit. “Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12) “Your righteousness is righteous forever, and your Torah is truth.” (Psalm 119:142)

I found an interesting supporting text to the pronomian view of Matt 5:17. But let me start here first: The prophets state that one day heaven and earth will pass away. In Matt 5, Jesus says, until THIS happens, not jot or tittle will pass from the Torah. “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away (Has this happened yet?), not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Torah until all is accomplished.” (Matthew 5:17-18) And here comes the new part. Jesus later confirms this prerequisite: “Heaven and earth WILL pass away, but my words will not pass away.” (Matthew 24:35)

The gospel was prophesied in Nahum 1:15. “Behold, on the mountains The feet of him who brings GOOD NEWS (εὐαγγελίζω), Who proclaims peace! O Judah, keep your appointed feasts, Perform your vows. For the wicked one shall no more pass through you; He is utterly cut off.” (Nahum 1:15) This prophecy was quoted by Paul in the NT, using the same Greek word as the Septuagint for “gospel / good news” (εὐαγγελίζω) “And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the GOOD NEWS! (εὐαγγελίζω)” (Romans 10:15) Many aspects of the new covenant are “already but not yet.” We are the first fruits of salvation, but the full harvest is yet to come. Jesus is yet to return and cast the wicked one into the pit. Notice how Nahum 1:5 states that NEVER AGAIN will the wicked one pass through Israel. This prophecy is still future. Yet it says to keep the feasts, even with this good news / gospel? Read it again.